Curse

enter_the_zone · Feb 24, 2010, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

Breaking news: RPG players prefer PvE.

Not everyone is competitive, most people prefer making friends and cooperating in a relaxing environment than dealing with a lot of the crap that PvP brings.

Arena Net is simply doing the wise business decision; PvE >>>> PvP.

Exactly. Most PVP players seem to think GW is a pvp game... well, over a million copies sold, and how many regular pvpers? Maybe 5 thousand, at a real push. Says it all really. The pve marketplace is much bigger than the pvp marketplace, always has been, always will be.

The-Bigz · Feb 24, 2010, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

Exactly. Most PVP players seem to think GW is a pvp game... well, over a million copies sold, and how many regular pvpers? Maybe 5 thousand, at a real push. Says it all really. The pve marketplace is much bigger than the pvp marketplace, always has been, always will be.

At Peak Times Guild Wars has maybe 5000 people on at once, MAYBE. Now take away 2500 to run bots for farming builds that Arena Net wont nerf, take away another 500 from soloists doing solo Vanquish, take away another 500-1500 for Solo running/getting runs and being afk, and take away 100-200 for Cartograph titles. That leaves you with MAYBE 500-1000 people. We are the most active, and I do see the same people day in and day out, and I see the same guilds day in and day out. I fight the same people, I party with the same people, and I rage on the same people. Nobody new shows up, nobody old leaves except when its N-Day. Aka NERFBOMB Aka A-Net doesn't like complaints so nerfs everything to mediocrity except a couple builds to lolwtf pwn PvE so people can still rub their e-peens about having cool stuff/titles.

Edit: Then again, most people dont enjoy a challenge. They choose to waste valuable time in their life relaxng and doing nothing, instead of spending all their time pushing it to the limit. Sure its a videogame, but after I get home from a boring day of work, I wanna whoop some arse. I want to KNOW that I am better then people at doing what I do. In PvE you fight a computer, go play chess and stop bashing up what used to be a good PvP game so you can 'relax'. Go get a tanning bed, or a membership to a gym and sit in the sauna, just dont screw other people outta fun :[.

And Honestly - This game is not known for its PvE, and in fact its PvE is so poorly designed that every gamesite I've went to just now looking this up has given it extremely bad reviews on management and PvE content. Its a grind, that you dont level up in, and dont get stronger then anyone in. Its a straight E-Peen contest to the extreme. At least in PvP its exciting and you can't predict everything your opponent is going to do because you can only use 8 skills. Thats basically what I've heard/read when I asked people about Guild Wars.

Arena Net did NOT make the majority of their money off people buying this game for PvE, because it was not marketed as a PvE game. Then again they have the statistics and I dont, so maybe I am wrong and somehow people bought this game for PvE. I just know that the only reason PvPers have such a low post count on forums most of the time is because they dont need to discuss things, we are busy kicking ass and spending as much time as we can in game so we dont miss the party that FINALLY needs us after waiting 3 hours to get into a group that can actually win in a team based Arena/HA. Regardless of who still plays or does not play, us PvPers DID pay money for this game, the same amount of money you PvE'rs played. So stop saying we're bad people, we supported the game as well, and we aren't all e-thug retards that talk about smoking weed and fighting all day with a mix of slurs.

Not Flaming A-Net, just sayin they really screwed us players that do PvP, and the first people to buy something and start it off is competitive people. First shirt to be bought? Someone who wants it before someone else. First IPhone sold? Someone who wants it before someone else. Competitive people buy things first, sometimes the random non competitive passive aggressive e-thug will go for it, but usually not.

Shadow Feathers · Feb 24, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Well I have to throw in my two cents here as well.

1.) I think Anet has leaned more toward the P vs E side due to many of the already above mentioned reasons. However the P vs P crowd has become bored with beating on each other because quite frankly that is a smaller amount of the players that play Guild Wars. There's also several reasons for that, attitude, and I think the biggest thing that is actually killing the P vs P area of the game is time.

How much time do you spend waiting in HA to get into a team or even Codex arena ?

If you're not in an established guild or have folks on your friends list on speed dial expect a pretty long delay in getting a group together for G vs G or any of the other things.

Time spent wasted on waiting and angonizing over getting the perfect team together is killing your P vs P not so such Anet. They have been reacting to what is going on within the game and quite frankly the P vs P crowd is killing itself.

Hate to say it but you're a smaller part of the bigger picture.

If you're really moaning about less players or lack or oppurtunities then your areas of combat should be more randomized. The way it is set up right now once you have aggonized over getting that crew together that can hang and play together several times a day and do it well, unless something happens to break up that crew ( i.e. real life ) you're going to find them staying at the top until that happens. I don't recall who mentioned it but that is what the P vs P wants and sees as his or her end game, an unbeatable winning team. There just isn't any way to meld the P vs E and P vs P people. You have two entirely different types of players and attitudes. The closest thing you would ever get is to randomize those arenas and if that were ever done I could just hear the QQing now.

Hell.... I love the game but I got very tired myself of having to change how I played P vs E to adjust to how things were going on in P vs P. In fact had it not been changed and split I would have quit. I like my P vs E it's where I come to relax after work, but I also enjoy doing the lighter side of P vs P. There's no way I'm spending an hour prior to a short on-line battle getting ready to join a party or waiting for someone with build " X " to join us. Perhaps if you did something about that huge waste of time there for a single round of combat, you just might get a few P vs E players involved in it, not all of us are afraid of the attitudes we find there, quite simply it's a huge time investment with very little pay back and I play to have fun, waiting for so long to play isn't exactly fun.

Guess I'll end this by saying yeah I would say the game is more geared to P vs E it always has been. If you were looking for a strictly lets go against other players game, you needed to choose another game a long time ago.

DreamWind · Feb 25, 2010, 02:13 AM // 02:13

The answer of course is an obvious yes and it happened several years ago. Not surprisingly, the shift from PvP to PvE was a direct coorelation of my shift from GW fanatic to thinking the game sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

here lies a big problem: pvp purists have to suffer because more and more game companies are trying to implement elements into pvp games that cater to the casual gamer in order to make more sales, which results in a poorer experience for the pvp purist.

to be honest, i do not think this has to be done in order to be a success. for example, just take a look at starcraft and hopefully starcraft 2. i am not one of the sc2 beta testers, but i have heard many good things about this game that it is staying true to its competitive pvp roots.

Excellent points. Let us look at the SC2 beta. The entire beta is PvP only! The entire point of the beta is to balance the PvP and the bugs. Yet we don't have people whining about "omg where is the PvE love you guys only like PvP" unlike this now shitty and dead community. Can you imagine Anet doing this with GW2? LoL.

superraptors · Feb 25, 2010, 03:08 AM // 03:08

true pvpers certainly do not turn to hardcore pve to an extent, usually casual gvg, some HA but its like usual dieing slowly.

most pvpers stay in pvp but more towards gvg and some ha as rewards are greater

theres no real thrill in guild wars pvp, killing someone doesnt feel satysfying

games like counterstrike still lives on strongly with no rewards from playing it normally and still have fun when u own or get owned

guild wars on the other hand is quite boring because of the shit pvp updates, having super defense builds, boring meta, pure repetitiveness thats making this game so boring

people do defect pve and that is only buying rare minis, thats all there is too guild wars now, how much ecto / rare minis you got.

enter_the_zone · Feb 25, 2010, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

Edit: Then again, most people dont enjoy a challenge. They choose to waste valuable time in their life relaxng and doing nothing, instead of spending all their time pushing it to the limit. Sure its a videogame, but after I get home from a boring day of work, I wanna whoop some arse. I want to KNOW that I am better then people at doing what I do.

Seriously, if all you do is spend you life "maxing it", I feel genuinely sorry for you, I really do. Learn to chill out, life isn't a race and beating the other guy is pointless because you're always the other guy to someone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

In PvE you fight a computer, go play chess and stop bashing up what used to be a good PvP game so you can 'relax'. Go get a tanning bed, or a membership to a gym and sit in the sauna, just dont screw other people outta fun :[.

Bought this game, just like you did, and not for the PvP. In fact, as I remember, you had to play PVE, there wasn't a choice. PvP was endgame content. ie what you do after you finish the story. I would agree that the PVE side should be totally split from PVP. Then both sets of players can have what they want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

And Honestly - This game is not known for its PvE, and in fact its PvE is so poorly designed that every gamesite I've went to just now looking this up has given it extremely bad reviews on management and PvE content. Its a grind, that you dont level up in, and dont get stronger then anyone in. Its a straight E-Peen contest to the extreme. At least in PvP its exciting and you can't predict everything your opponent is going to do because you can only use 8 skills. Thats basically what I've heard/read when I asked people about Guild Wars.

Levelling has sod all to do with PVE. That's a crappy MMO way of thinking, and MMO's, on the whole , are the stinking turds of the gaming world. Regarding PVP, it's great when you're not bored waiting for a team, or in a team that's useless because it has other people in it.. and people are /fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

Arena Net did NOT make the majority of their money off people buying this game for PvE, because it was not marketed as a PvE game. Then again they have the statistics and I dont, so maybe I am wrong and somehow people bought this game for PvE. I just know that the only reason PvPers have such a low post count on forums most of the time is because they dont need to discuss things, we are busy kicking ass and spending as much time as we can in game so we dont miss the party that FINALLY needs us after waiting 3 hours to get into a group that can actually win in a team based Arena/HA. Regardless of who still plays or does not play, us PvPers DID pay money for this game, the same amount of money you PvE'rs played. So stop saying we're bad people, we supported the game as well, and we aren't all e-thug retards that talk about smoking weed and fighting all day with a mix of slurs.

The size of the pve community vs the size of the pvp community says massively otherwise. More PVE players means they paid a lot more overall than PVP players. That's cold, hard math.

PVP players are actually massively over-represented on forums, not under-represented. PVE players don't tend to bother, what would be the point. Hell, most pve players don't even know the /wiki command.

No one is saying PVP players are bad people, just that the general PVP scene has a very crappy attitude, though I do think waiting for 3 hours for a decent team etc. has a LOT to do with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

Not Flaming A-Net, just sayin they really screwed us players that do PvP, and the first people to buy something and start it off is competitive people. First shirt to be bought? Someone who wants it before someone else. First IPhone sold? Someone who wants it before someone else. Competitive people buy things first, sometimes the random non competitive passive aggressive e-thug will go for it, but usually not.

How, exactly, have they screwed you? The total pvp population ever (that's anyone who has ever seriously played PVP, not just the active population) comprises probably 1% of the overall accounts bought, and yet PVP gets a disproportional consideration in balancing and the two best chests in the game (HA chest and Zaishen). Pull the other one, it has bells on. If it was pvp community sales paying for balancing, balancing would have ended 6 months after release with ArenaNet filing for bankruptcy.

pumpkin pie · Feb 25, 2010, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

here lies a big problem: pvp purists have to suffer because more and more game companies are trying to implement elements into pvp games that cater to the casual gamer in order to make more sales, which results in a poorer experience for the pvp purist.

snipped

actually that is not true, to a certain extent. I would think that the GW PvE population is what keeping its PvP going, If GW hasn't the PvE players, you think there would have 5 million copies sold? Without that number, the game would have to shut down long ago, and you would not have "poorer experience for the PvP purist" you would instead have no experience what so ever, so it is only fair that GW has to, at some point think about how to shift its PvE players's interest to the PvP side.

/throw 1 cent

Firebaall · Feb 25, 2010, 03:40 AM // 03:40

PVE is more important to Guild Wars.

Why would they want to waste focus on PvP? PvP in Guild Wars is a couple developer's pet project. Nothing more. Skill balances? lol.....

Stamp your feet and feel important as a PvP player, your still at the mercy of the PvE players. Money talks, and PvE players have more players....and that means, many times your dime.

Trinity Fire Angel · Feb 25, 2010, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Where anet went wrong was to shift focus to pve by allowing rare rewards in pve. All the rare drops should have been from the end chest in HoH. Instead we have UW and DoA and now dungeons where pve is more rewarding. The only thing that keeps HA alive are awesome emotes and the chance of a mini ghostly.

It's easy enuff to see that shift even back when favour of the gods shifted from HA to titles. Like WTF!!?!?! They were telling us something. Stop playing HA to gain favour and start pve'ing.

snaek · Feb 25, 2010, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

the game would have to shut down long ago, and you would not have "poorer experience for the PvP purist" you would instead have no experience what so ever, so it is only fair that GW has to, at some point think about how to shift its PvE players's interest to the PvP side.

i would have rather stopped playing gw having good memories of a good game that ran out of funds, than a game that sold out and turned to complete crap and caused me to quit due to broken gameplay.

Gun Pierson · Feb 25, 2010, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

I think that Arena Nets main focus on PvP when the game was developed and what made it such a large hit has shifted to PvE.

It's indeed true that GW is build from the ground up for PvP, but it's the free PvE that made GW a large hit, not PvP imo. That's why they changed focus to PvE after Factions (which was the final big offensive to encourage players to try out PvP with stuff like Fort Aspenwood and the 10k faction quests). Even though they didn't succeed, Fort Aspenwood is more noob friendly vs. other forms of PvP and it's great for casual PvP fun.

Arkantos · Feb 25, 2010, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

The total pvp population ever (that's anyone who has ever seriously played PVP, not just the active population) comprises probably 1% of the overall accounts bought

86.5% of all statistics are made up.

Pulling numbers out of your ass doesn't make your argument valid.

Firebaall · Feb 25, 2010, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Maybe not, but it's likely much lower than 1%. PvP is nothing more than a mini game to Guild Wars.

PvE is Guild Wars.

Killed u man · Feb 25, 2010, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebaall

Maybe not, but it's likely much lower than 1%. PvP is nothing more than a mini game to Guild Wars.

PvE is Guild Wars.

True, and I don't think that anyone is going to deny that, tough I would rephrase that statement though:

PvE is what Guild Wars has become.

As someone posted rather nicely before:

Guild Wars was build on a PvP foundation. Everything initially had PvP as end-game in mind, and therefore any PvE end-game will be crippled by nature, as the game design never intended for people to stay in PvE.

I'll agree that Guild Wars IS a PvE in it's current state, but at the same time, you can't deny the PvE in Guild Wars is grind, pure forced grind. And don't kid yourself, we're not talking about completing the storyline for the first time, we're talking about hardcore end-game content. And the truth of the matter is that for Guild Wars PvE, that's forced title grind, mainly for rewards in Guild Wars 2.

But I gues that belongs in a "Is GW a PvE worthy game?"-discussion, though I hope you get my point non-the-less.

When GW2 gets released, Anet will have to hope for 2 things:

1) ALOT of people from GW1 will move on to GW2, and going by plain on logic, this number can ONLY by the same, or lower than the amount of people that bought GW1.

2) The game lures a shitton of people in, in times of high competition. (Aka, the game is a succes)

1) is obviously going to be a big factor, but you can't deny the fact that people are leaving every day, and the largest part of the (ex-)PvP community peaced out aswell. The general neglect of PvP, and the simply not amazing PvE doesn't convince the majority of peope to stay.

2) is getting more and more unlikely every day, and Anet is starting to realize this. Ask yourself this: When GW2 gets released, WHY would anyone who hasn't played GW1 buy it? (Assuming he does some research) He's going to miss out off the bat on the extra's GW1 players get (HoM), he's not going to be expecting great PvP (Because GW1 was a flop) and he's not going to be expecting great PvE (Because GW1 PvE was bad). Bottom line is, this number 2 category will be VERY, VERY small.

Trying to re-establish some of that intitial integrity GW had (Solely because of PvP) might turn around a couple of hundred, thousand or even ten thousand people, and Anet knows that.

If they can't promote GW2 as a PvP game (Or atleast competitive PvP being a large part), they will miss out on A LOT of potential new customers, probably more than people stepping over from GW1.

Scary · Feb 25, 2010, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Well don't think it has shifted really. I always felt that skill changes as they happened before had a negative effect on PvE because they had to take PvP into account. Because skills can now have separate version for each game type a lot more could be done to fix things in PvE.
And to be honest, when I started playing almost 5 years ago PvP was already about cookie cutter builds and finding exploits for teambuilds. The whole -way is the result of that.
But GW is not the main priority anymore. GW2 is. And for new people there's a lot of PvE content out there and so that is still important as well. It's not only about balance but also about game enjoyment I guess.
And the whole pro vs noob stuff and elitist behaviour was there in the beginning too. I started playing when the game was only out for a few weeks and it was already happening. So no, nothing new there I'm afraid.

Totally agree with this post.
I started to when GW just started for a week or 2. At that moment I started some chars in PvE and at the same time in HA. And indeed, al the same what is going on now, was happening at those days to. It was just told by other people. PvP is not changed that much sure there have been enough skill changes some for the best some for the wurst. But its not the system that change so much. It are the players.
Im playing this game almost 5 years and yes looking from mine point of view.
O men would I like more content etc. etc. But People that are playing so long are getting borred at certain level. And that is normal after such a long time.

And how much I wish Anet would keep GW in a good shape with many updates. You can't blame theme to try making something great of GW 2.
And try to earn money over GW with some upgrades. And at that part they could do a lot more Ill guess. But stil. All players that are new at this moment arn't playing a different game. They just meet other people than the time we started. Those days everything was new for all of us and it wasn't to hard to find groups to do all kind of things. Now they have to do a lot by them selfs or with hero's. ... Men, this gonna take much to long.

Wel, the game is not changing that much.... we are

Zehnchu · Feb 25, 2010, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

and you can't really argue that GW's didn't shift towards PVE when they stopped real life prizes for GvG.

balance is a must when you have cash value prizes. And that's why the skill balance was important.

Which I am sure it will be that way when GW2 is ever released.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Oh, and yeah, pve is the new focus. and in my opinion, i believe it's because a majority of players would rather have boring repetition as long as they always win, rather than play against enemies that think and provide a genuine challenge.

I find both to be boring repetition, I find that a large number of pve and pvp people can't think out side the box the ones who can left GW to go play something else.

Dabineh Deathbringer · Feb 25, 2010, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Uhmmm... this is how I see it.

Anet is making a huge new game which has been talked about for like 2 or more years now. What happens in PvP, really, doesn't matter that much I would assume as what happens in their storyline which builds a game.

Take a look at the other MMORPG's. Do they have a storyline as epic as GW has? Nightfall was INCREDIBLE!

They've already proven with updates/lack of updates that the future is GW2 and that is their focus. Why would they really waste time trying to please everyone in PvP when they can please more people with simple updates to PvE?

When there are changes to PvP, most people, regardless of who it effects, are going to complain. In PvE, it's kind of a different story. You just find some other farm that will result in the same outcome - lots of money. In PvP, when there is a change, you have to search and practice a new build.

So basically - they are making a storyline to make more money and create a better experience for GW2. I'd rather have that honestly than seeing PvP pissed on more than it is.

People should just realize however - Anyone can put skills on their bar, but that doesn't mean they'll be successful.

Bob Slydell · Feb 25, 2010, 08:20 AM // 08:20

IMO, because of the way PvP was implemented into GW, gives people the view that GW is easily debatable that Pv(X) is what GW is meant to be viewed as.

In a traditional MMO you have the PvE world running on PvE designated Servers. Then you have a few PvP servers on the side. The PvP server houses the same functionality and PvE playing as a PvE server, only this time you can fight other players. You also have to fight people of your own level range, level ranges are usually 1-80 for most MMO (Eq2, WoW.. etc). This concept cannot run in PvE world of GW, so it was implemented to run in it's own designated world (The battle isles) nowadays. It's not only the battle isles being PvP only content that makes PvE and PvP look so seperate, but that you can also skip PvE and make a PvP-Only character. - Again, it was just the way PvP was implemented into the game.

Regardless of what anyone says or even does, GW is, was and always will be a PvE game because of the sheer amount of PvE content, and so little amount of PvP content. PvP was there for people who wanted to do it, but it sure as hell wasn't what the game was marketed for. Guild Wars might be the name of the game. But you are a player who plays in PvE, if you are in a Guild, wow... you now have the option to PvP against another guild, this dosen't make the damn game a PvP game. Or.. (in the original game) if you wanted to get some PvP action going on without doing GvG, you could find many outposts in Prophecies that were small arenas, which are now part of RA.

I just have a problem with people saying the game is PvP more so than PvE. If it was, the game would feature ONLY PvP content and nothing else. The devs wouldn't have wasted years and millions of dollars developing the PvE we see today.

The-Bigz · Feb 25, 2010, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

Seriously, if all you do is spend you life "maxing it", I feel genuinely sorry for you, I really do. Learn to chill out, life isn't a race and beating the other guy is pointless because you're always the other guy to someone else.

Bought this game, just like you did, and not for the PvP. In fact, as I remember, you had to play PVE, there wasn't a choice. PvP was endgame content. ie what you do after you finish the story. I would agree that the PVE side should be totally split from PVP. Then both sets of players can have what they want.

Levelling has sod all to do with PVE. That's a crappy MMO way of thinking, and MMO's, on the whole , are the stinking turds of the gaming world. Regarding PVP, it's great when you're not bored waiting for a team, or in a team that's useless because it has other people in it.. and people are /fail.

The size of the pve community vs the size of the pvp community says massively otherwise. More PVE players means they paid a lot more overall than PVP players. That's cold, hard math.

PVP players are actually massively over-represented on forums, not under-represented. PVE players don't tend to bother, what would be the point. Hell, most pve players don't even know the /wiki command.

No one is saying PVP players are bad people, just that the general PVP scene has a very crappy attitude, though I do think waiting for 3 hours for a decent team etc. has a LOT to do with that.

How, exactly, have they screwed you? The total pvp population ever (that's anyone who has ever seriously played PVP, not just the active population) comprises probably 1% of the overall accounts bought, and yet PVP gets a disproportional consideration in balancing and the two best chests in the game (HA chest and Zaishen). Pull the other one, it has bells on. If it was pvp community sales paying for balancing, balancing would have ended 6 months after release with ArenaNet filing for bankruptcy.

I would respond to your wall of text, but making shit up and then posting it on a forum to try and prove that your important doesn't work. You dont have to make yourself look retarded to see that A-Net cares about PvE more, but at least dont lie about it.

Bob Slydell · Feb 25, 2010, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

I would respond to your wall of text, but making shit up and then posting it on a forum to try and prove that your important doesn't work. You dont have to make yourself look retarded to see that A-Net cares about PvE more, but at least dont lie about it.

Oh the irony.